Saturday, October 07, 2006

You're a Bleedin' Motherfucker Now Aren't You

I've just spent a fascinating hour or so reading a great blog. Okay, it was mine. Ego aside, click on some of the old post links on the right, then click on more of them on the new posts you selected. Be sure to read the comments. There is some good shit in there.

Well, the US finally went ahead and did it. They seem to becoming more of a theocracy day by day. It's gonna be hard to tell them from Iran soon. End of off-topic point. The real point is all the fun gnashing and grinding of teeth by all those young bucks on the HSNL forum. I suspect we won't be getting any “How Should I Invest My Millions into Being a Global CEO” posts soon. It's always tears at bedtime when you confiscate the mechanical pencils and d20 dice off the D&D society.

I had a battle through some of the WCOOP. Man, the standard was poor. I was no superstar, but there was a lot of dead wood in the events I played. The Razz event basically became the Bet Every Street event. I got a tiny draw in the plo8b, which I have written up for my paying job, so you will see it at CPE in a few months. Yes, tournament plo8b in a poker magazine. Fair credit to Rolf S; having spent most of my Net time arguing with and insulting him, he now pays me to write obscure stuff with obscurer titles. Back to the WCOOP, the main problem is still one of concentration. For awhile I was in a really good spot in the $320 NLHE, but I'm sure the fact I was playing 4+ other cash games at the same time didn't help my performance. Knowing that I'm unlikely to win, I tend to see them as a waste of time that needs to be filled by playing proper, profitable poker. Thankfully man-flu prevented me from spunking off any more money past the plo8b event.

I have been playing PLO and PLO8b as a change of pace on Party recently. The standard, at least at the 5-10 levels, is still surprisingly low. Unfortunately, I have not been playing great either, and PLO variance has been cruel. Certainly it seems that PLO brings out the gambler in me. I have been more than a little ring rusty. Having said that, I have lost *ALL* my big pots. That is, $17k or so of pots where I've put my money in well, or thereabouts. Also, it's easy how soon you forget how many hands end up being crooked coin tosses. I must be running at 20-30% on them too so results have matched performance. I may persevere though – the games look that good. Thank god for NLHE and its robust crushing edges for bailing me out.

As a general note, if you did know my screen names but now wonder why I'm so damned ignorant, it's simply that I've turned off chat. So no offence.

19 comments:

Gergery said...

you think position is more important in plo8 or plo?

Big Dave D said...

You're on 2+2 as we speak hey? Am I out of line with my advice there, btw. Its been a long time since I thought plo8b. To answer your question, definately plo8b. Getting a feel for what lows and low draws are out there is critical. Having said that, Party may be somewhat different as my recent experience there is a lot of bangers on every street, which reduces position considerably. But in a less aggressive game I would stick to plo8b>plo.

gl

dd

Gergery said...

I dont' think you are out of line, but it does depend on quality of opposition. The worse your opponents are, the more you can play A5TJs OOP. There are definitely spots where i think its EV+ to play it. But I have to believe my opponents are significantly worse than average to do it.

I will say that I ALWAYS want my opponents playing that hand for a raise OOP

-g

chaos said...

Well, I hope things pick up Dave.

I decided some months ago to turn my chat-off, for the most part at least. One or two catastrophic days had arguably been seeded in some confrontation or another. Also, from a pessimistic perspective, chat is another criteria to weight incorrectly.

I took your advice and looked back at some of your earlier posts, in fact waaaay back to your first - deal making for more than the first prize.

http://internetpokerpro.blogspot.com/2004/06/in-beginning.html

Were I to find myself in such an unlikely position, I couldn’t see myself taking the piss unless I particularly disliked the parties concerned (or they’d likely try it on themselves). Nor do I obviously see myself being cheeky and asking for say $500 - which would probably get though. That all said I do feel there is one measurement of worth that arguably supports the huge stack asking for more than the fist prize: surprise, surprise – it’s utility.

Imagine if you took a snapshot of the players’ response to a no-deal: you would see three varying in glumness and one slightly negative but essentially indifferent face. Now if the deal were done as the glum faces requested, you'd expect to see three happy expressions and one slightly positive but still largely indifferent expression. Now, one interpretation of a good deal might require all players to be in the same final state of contentment (personality disorders to one side): - which would hopefully be a result of similar changes from state w.r.t. utility. You could argue this could be achieved by skimming off some of the contentedness of the smiley faces in a bid to crank up some satisfaction in the guys who’s almost over the line*.

Of course there are a couple of issues. Regardless of the payout if people feel cheated then almost by definition, any additional non-trivial pay-off for the big stack leaves people pissed off, not just less content. Many people will think: fuck you then. And of course many will argue by getting the seat you are maximizing utility, but unless it’s in the rules (which perhaps it should be) that you can agree a deal for more than first prize, then it clearly isn’t maximized.

It’s certainly a game outside of the game, but not everyone signs up to play it, so I’d not do it unless we were all playing it.


* ok I’m sure utility isn’t that simple, but it’s just the principle

Anonymous said...

regarding PLO vs HE, I tried some party 10/20 as a diversion, and I had a good run. I wasn't impressed by the standard of play, apparently my somewhat nitty style is good enough there. (hubris alert--bad run must be coming)

In contrast, in the old days, I had trouble beating the stars 1/2 or 2/4 games.

The NLHE players have improved, I play more 5/10 than 10/20 there. Meanwhile, omaha party style seems loose as ever.

Ironic that I say that, as I was advocating playing hold'em rather than that variance-infested game with many cards of yours, some time ago.

Alix

Anonymous said...

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Big Dave D said...

Alix,

I remember you giving that advice. As it happens, I'm playing a lot more Omaha lately, simply because I have to think less.

gl

dd

Big Dave D said...

Chaos,

Wasn't this the principle of auctions and game theory that the guy in " A Beautiful Mind" came up with? I like the emoticon principle btw :) Over time, I've softened on the Miros principle. I think he should have just asked for less. The thing that we were really getting into back then was how being a cock eventually corrupted you in your "normal" life too. I still think this is true for live play and over a long period of time, a "nice" winner will make more money than a "twat" winner. But it seems online some of these kids can make a complete schism between how they play and how they act. By all accounts Wintermute is a nice guy in the real world, but his online persona is, at best, an acquired taste.

gl

dd

chaos said...

"Wasn't this the principle of auctions and game theory that the guy in " A Beautiful Mind" came up with? I like the emoticon principle btw :)"

I don't know - you're more well versed than me in mathematicians and philosophers alike. I, shamefully, haven't even seen the movie.

emoticon principle - yes, very good.

Wintermute said...

"The real point is all the fun gnashing and grinding of teeth by all those young bucks on the HSNL forum. I suspect we won't be getting any “How Should I Invest My Millions into Being a Global CEO” posts soon. It's always tears at bedtime when you confiscate the mechanical pencils and d20 dice off the D&D society."


Self-assuredness is certainly a significant enabling trait for many winning poker players. And in my mind, I've always granted you benefit of the doubt that the generally condescending tone of your posts in various places directed at young and successful internet poker players was borne of this type of arrogance. That is, your mockery of newer, more successful players than yourself was indicative of a defense mechanism by which you could maintain an imagined highground over those players in terms of poker skill, thereby averting some sort of crisis of self-confidence.

You aren't alone in exhibiting this type of behavior... I would believe that the majority of experienced, successful players cast doubt and then jealousy on newbies who develop into massive winners. Example: 2+2's El Diablo famously ridiculed that Bruiser500 kid when he set out to become a "pro online NL player," until the kid rather effortlessly fullfilled his goals, easily passing the El Diablo guy along. (Incidentally, it's ironic that you offer thinly-veiled discouragement and skepticism towards the very same Bruiser500's attempt to tackle PLO.)

However, you take things farther than the norm in a couple ways. First, your condescenscion is not restricted to poker--you have a need to subtly cast aspersions on my post-poker job aspirations, for example. I can understand the need for a defense mechanism within the area of your specialty (poker) but why make the poke when someone's game goes elsewhere? Even here you're not alone--certainly other people I only know through poker provide humorous jabs about a career change to engineering... but I'm just not willing to lump you in with those who would base such remarks purely in humor given the second way in which you take things further than the norm, which is that you openly revel in the downfall of others.

As evidenced in the quote above, you are positively thrilled that those young bucks are (at least soon to be) out of business in poker. Your ridicule of their aspirations proved to be misguided and your predictions of their failure turned out to be flat wrong, and now your jealousy rears its ugly head when you finally get the opporunity to celebrate their stroke of bad luck. I suppose your motto would be "if you can't beat them, laugh in their faces when they get shut out of the game."

Now, in my case, it's tough to be mortally offended because I'd never intended to play poker for a living. As such, it's not on my personal behalf that I'm expressing my disgust with you, which I would hope makes my words all the more genuine. But many of those HSNL'ers you openly mock don't have a lot of other options that would be even remotely as lucrative in comparison. Why is observing their panic "fun" to you? They are positively screwed, in many significant, life-altering ways.

It's one thing to be a dick or an asshole and offer discouragement or mockign advice, but to laugh at the champions from the sidelines when the big game gets called on account of a technicality? That's just disgusting.

Big Dave D said...

WM,

Wow. I'm not really sure how to respond. This is probably only the second or so post or comment I've seen of yours that is truly serious. So I'll take it serious too.

First off the bat: I have *never* criticised your normal working aspirations. I think I used the term "square" on your blog, which I believe is often used, at least in pulp fiction terms, as a normal job vs a somewhat crooked/dodgy one. I also think its amusing that some of your fanboys believe the online persona more than the real truth, which is that you are allegedly respectable and will become even more so. Furthermore, as others would testify, I always have advocated having a real job as well as poker. So if in someway on this front I have offended you, then a wholeheartedly apologise.

On the other line though, I think you have lost your fucking mind. Do you remember what your posts were like on 2+2??? Not just the drunk, misogynist ones; your staple response on 2+2 would be all the adjectives you used to describe mine plus the creative use of pictures. I find the idea of you saying my posting style, is in effect rude, absolutely mind-boggling.

As to HSNL...do you go there often? Did you read the post which my comment was referring to? Gargantuan arrogance runs top to tail through that forum. As to these kids having no place else to turn, well clearly the folks on HSNL thought their Internet poker skills were absolutely transferable and so there will be no problem at all. Another example...they started posting PLO posts there because the "pee wee" folks in the PLO forum just wouldn't understand their rarefied plays. Yet when you see the PLO content being discussed, well, that is far from the truth.

Putting this all to one side, I don't ever recall "Your ridicule of their aspirations proved to be misguided and your predictions of their failure turned out to be flat wrong, and now your jealousy rears its ugly head when you finally get the opportunity to celebrate their stroke of bad luck." Criticise me for my attitude sure; pot-kettle-black permitting. But don't put meaningless words in my mouth. I have ridiculed their posturing, nativity and arrogance. I can't recall predicting anyone would go broke, except in the general sense that a % of people who are doing extremely well are riding more of the variance wave than they would ever imagine. But that is hardly news. Jealousy? C'mon. Don't you see that, avoiding the A word again, its normally those types of emotions that lead people to believe that all criticism has to be rooted in envy.

I really wonder where all this is coming from? Was it my bitch fight with Davebreal?

I can't really leave this without this last incredible point of yours: “but to laugh at the champions from the sidelines when the big game gets called on account of a technicality? That's just disgusting.” I hope you don't literally mean this. If this is your definition of disgusting then you need to get some sense of perspective. If they are you definitions of champions then, oh boy.

Gl

Dave D

Big Dave D said...

I just read that Antonious-Brad Booth $250k pot thing on HSNL. Looks like I was too kind on those guys.

gl

dd

chaos said...

WM,

Dave's pretty outspoken and as such I'm sure he'd agree he, it's only proper he get's the odd rebuttal - that's half the fun. However, I think you're way off the mark. My irration of clique blogs or forums makes me a reluctant contributor, and besides, it's your fight. But fwiw.

The jealousy thing doesn't wash at with me, at all. Even it were true I'd expct Dave to value's his reputation and his own intellect too much to hold a position he knew to be based on it. In fact I would say he has guarded against such accusations, unnecessarily imo, by too often qualifying criticisms of top players with 'that said, they're clearly more successful than me'.

Besides which, he doesn't strike me as the jealous sort. . Several years back I recall Dave lauding over the then 18-19 year old Eric123 describing his play as 'God-like'. Dave's old school poker, not as old us some, but comfortably pre-internet. That attitude and acceptance was and still is to a degree is very utypical from his genre of poker-player. It doesn't smack of the festering jealous sort.

As for symapthy for the kids, I am understating it to say I share his lack of it for a certain class of poker player, or in particular, certain 2+2 'ers. To suggest they're fucked is ridiculous - they've been dealt the sort of life lesson than most of us need from time to time. The hypocrisy thing is lost on me, but if you're half as bad as Dave suggests...

" As such, it's not on my personal behalf that I'm expressing my disgust with you, which I would hope makes my words all the more genuine."

Now, come on. You have nothing vested in expressing your personal disgust with Dave? With your history! There's no better opporunity to launch a whithering attack on your adversary than when your position appears as though it should be a sympathetic one. So, thus, people can now believe that, all along, your attacks & criricisms weren't driven by base emotions but by reason, even altruism.

A little too obvious, that one.

WM said...

Chaos,

It's the lack of sympathy that bothers me. I just don't understand why that's your reaction. And to describe it as such (a "lack of sympathy", ha!) very much understates the obvious pleasure BDD is taking in mocking these kids when their livelihood is taken away to a large extent. I just can't see any reasonable motive other than jealousy & malice.

I'm not sure where you see hypocrisy in my comments; I freely admit that I've belittled others and casted doubt at new players trying to climb the ranks, though I'd claim never with the vigor BDD has. It's tough to resist, and in my comment I never claimed to be above it. But to take satisfaction in their games being ruined--that's something I'll never do.

Finally... "adversary"? To my knowledge, we've never even played a hand with one another.

WM

chaos said...

wm,

By hypocrisy I refer to your alleged offensiveness general and lack of empathy on forums and at tables(?). Now of course, I don’t know this, but were it true, I’m sure you’d understand such criticisms would be difficult to digest.

It is blinkered to lament the ‘fuckedness’ of your youthful pros but don’t rejoice in how unfucked many kids will be by not blowing their futures through on-line gambling. You don’t know them, so they don’t count? I was surprised and reassured by some posters on 2+2 who could see that society would benefit, even if they didn’t. Ultimately, the successful kids will be better placed than the unsuccessful ones: they just have to alter their goals.

As for the jealousy thing, it’s always a possible explanation fo lack of sympathy for someone’s predicament or, indeed, revelling in it; but this is precisely how some successful people justify their lack of popularity: ’they’re just jealous’. It’s a conveneient way to think.

Why should anyone who is arrogant, conceited, patronising automatically generate sympathy when forced to endure a humbling experience? Why should lack of sympathy be rooted in jealousy or malice? There is no reason. If you dislike certain qualities in other people, then it is human nature to be less sympathetic to them. Success is, for some, one of those qualities & resentment of this attribute typically stems from jealousy. However success will in some cases expose or augment a whole raft of repugnant traits. Such traits don’t just stem from success, even if they did, they don’t have to. As I said there is a certain class of player who I bare no sympathy for, nor should I. You know the sort, the type that likes to mock the players who really are fucked. In terms of behaviour I expect of others what I expect of myself, preferably better.

For many this sobering experience will be just what they need: it may just save them. To be honest I’m not sure any poker player deserves sympathy when the game dries up.

You seem to be of the opinion this unsympathetic stance is some festering emotion: it isn’t. It’s no real issue to me, it’s not ongoing as it is to you guys.
I’ve not been part of the hysteria on 2+2, it’s of less interest to me. Nor do I have any running feuds with some who might be affected. My response to doomsday was largely to consider how it affected me, and still is, I’m not in some enduring state of unsympathy towards some of these players: there’s no mileage in it.
It is, obviously, best not to dwell on other people's sucesses or failures; of course, that's not always easy.

“adversary"? To my knowledge, we've never even played a hand with one another.” – you assume far too narrower a definition


chaos

Big Dave D said...

You guys seem to be getting along fine without me. I would add a couple of things. Symapthy or the lack of it is the key, but why should I? Is it compulsory? Especially when, in terms of HSNL which was where the comment was directed, the twat to human ratio is especially poor. As a sidenote, that D&D thing was a previous jab I had made about them, so maybe WM saw it as worse than it really was.

But lack of sympathy doesnt lead to the myriad of emotions you seem to be ascribing to me. To quote "obvious pleasure ... mocking these kids ... jealousy & malice." How do you get this out of one sentence? I really don't care that much. And now that CHaos mentioned it, maybe it is a wakeup call for them.

As to the forum thing. I have been called rude several times, but mostly this is just my innate rudeness and brevity and bar a few examples, I have mostly made up with people I have offended, normally quite publically. I have never had people request that I am barred from posting. I have never been barred from posting. Are these all true for you too? And as a rider, I would suspect you would find it hard to find me belittling *anyone* in a forum, especially newbies.

Let's hope this run and runs, saves me writing a new post :)

gl

dd

Anonymous said...

Hee,
The 250k pot thread was great, not that anyone put much effort to talk about poker in it, but how everyone involved made an ass of himself in public, and that counts our belowed Bluffthis.

To WM, I think you are reading a bit too much between the lines here. Im certain that D is not at all that envy of the youth as I am, and even I would not dance in the graves that way... besides I do not think that future is that dark anyhow.

gl all
Aksu

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